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Stan: That came after Swamp Thing, didnt it?
Roy: No, it came simultaneously as the initial one-shot Swamp Thing story, to begin with the regular series.
Stan: So we didnt copy it from Swamp Thing?
Roy: No, or the other way around. In fact, I had done a character a bit earlier in The Hulk that's also a takeoff for the Heap character from your 40s comics. I had named it The Shape, and you insisted that name sounded feminine, which means you changed it to The Glob.
Stan: Its funny that you simply mentioned The Heap, because when I did The Hulk, I had the Heap in your mind when I made-up the name. I thought The Hulk sounded like The Heap and I liked it.
Roy: The Heap was one of several great old characters; hes been copied in excess of most characters. Man-Thing appeared looking as being similar to him. Do you remember how Savage Tales took place? I always got the impression that Goodman wasnt wild about doing black- - white books. Were these something you pushed?
Stan: I wonder why I wanted to try and do black- - white books. I did push them, but I cant remember why.
Roy: Well, there was clearly the Warren books obtaining a share in the market that people werent stepping into, perhaps?
Stan: Were they cheaper to complete?
Roy: Well, no color, so they really were cheaper per page, certainly. They were also more pricey and we're able to, without worrying about Code, go a bit further. The first issue of Savage Tales had slightly nudity from the Conan story plus in your Ka-Zar story.
Stan: I was trying to grab older readers.
Roy: There was a bit more violence, but nothing really salacious. I remember an article by Denny ONeil and Gene Colan where, when the book became available, the many nudity ended up covered up. We were feeling our sources that are and forth, because we didnt understand specifically what i was doing. There were a number of distribution problems. There was per year between Savage Tales 1 and two. Do you remember why that has been?
Stan: No, but that appears to indicate a distribution problem.
Roy: I heard that people didnt enter Canada in any way because somebody complained so it was salacious material, but Ive never witnessed anything written about that. But I did obtain the impression that Martin Goodman was willing to see Savage Tales die once.
Stan: Martin never had any desire for those books.
Roy: When Savage Tales returned, it quickly spun off The Savage Sword of Conan, and there was all those black- - white books applying Dracula Lives! which you heaped on my own shoulders over the two-day period.
Roy: I was great at it because I got Marv Wolfman and folks to help a great deal. This happened as soon as you had become Publisher, and you also used to always tell me that people needed to perform these extra books to pay for my salary. Except that I never noticed acquiring a big raise! laughs
One day you started in and said there we were going to perform a new book called Dracula Lives! that has been about 60 pages of black- - white material to fill. The next day you entered and said were going to try and do a second black- - white, too, because we cant fit non-vampire material in Dracula Lives! so well do Monsters Unleashed. I stated that made sense, so I called in Marv, Gerry Conway, Len Wein, and that we all began on this. Then I came from the next day and you also said, Guess what? I said, Dont let me know, you've got a third book to incorporate. You said, No, two more! You wanted to perform Vampire Tales vampires that werent Dracula and Tales from the Zombie.
Stan: Didnt Bill Everett make it happen cover?
Roy: No, how it happened was that, a short while before that, within the warehouse when we had been doing a searches, I found this story from Menace that you just and Bill had both signed a 5- or 6-page wonderful zombie story through the 1950s.
Stan: Thats one which I remember.
Roy: The image within the splash page was among the all-time great drawings of the zombie. I decided to generate that the template on the title character, and you may have been contemplating that story, too, and merely never mentioned it. I made-up the name Simon Garth and turned it to Steve Gerber, plus it sort of went following that. So, within just 48 hours, we suddenly had four gigantic books popping out and that didnt even count the Conan black- - white!
Stan: I just wanted for making sure that individuals needed you.
Roy: It was challenging. Some on the stories were good and a few not so good, but every one of the mags lasted for a time Savage Sword of Conan lasted for more than 200 Next I needed to ask you with regards to a few people from that period. Whats most of your impression of Jim Steranko?
Stan: I loved him and was incredibly in awe of him. He was this type of multi-talented guy. One from the most important matters is to have a very certain style, not just in be able to create or draw well but to complete it with style and distinction. His style was distinctive that she just seemed more hip, cooler, plus much more cutting-edge than any artist during those times.
Roy: This may be the guy who walked in a single day and told me that they had just also come in from his fencing lesson. I do not know if which was hip or otherwise, but it really was cool.
Stan: That happened probably after his magic show. He was obviously a great guy well isn't what he wanted and was very definite. He was the level of guy who, when you finally got to understand him, that you were willing to supply him with a project and permit him to do it his way. I were built with a lot of confidence in him.
Roy: After writing the primary few SHIELD stories he drew, I was happy to permit him to write them, also, while he had his personal ideas and I had other things to perform. SHIELD never was a big seller, nevertheless it was one of many influential books. Steranko and Neal Adams were influential beyond their selling power.
Stan: It would be a big loss to us, as well as the whole business, when Jim made a decision to quit and do his magazine.
Roy: Do you remember how Barry Smith got his job?
Stan: No, but he were built with a very distinctive style and, in the beginning, it took a bit getting used to in this little part when he evolved into being so not the same as some in the other artists. He was more quietly illustrative. One thing I remember about Barry would have been a Dr. Strange story that she did when camping. I was pleasantly surprised at how well it proved; when I were required to sit and write the copy, it am easy to write and yes it worked so well. I was very impressed and I think Barry is yet another guy that is very, very talented.
Roy: The nice thing about people like Barry and Steranko is the fact theyre besides artists, but real storytellers. They dont just draw a good deal of pretty pictures. Ive never had much patience for artists who just draw very pretty because its often either totally dull, like still photos, if not its so illustrative you practically ought to connect the dots to tell an account.
Stan: Thats among the problems with some from the artists within the business today they are doing nice, impressive individual pictures, nonetheless they dont have enough feeling for continuity letting one picture encounter another so so it tells a tale.
Roy: Another artist, whom I dont think you dealt with, was Jim Starlin.
Stan: There you go! Theres another creative, stylized, very, very talented guy. I was impressed to be able strip in Epic magazine, featuring that character with all the long nose.
Roy: How do you remember Herb Trimpe, with that you worked for some time on The Incredible Hulk?
Stan: I liked Herb. He would be a nice guy, dependable, having a style that had been nice, simple, and clear. He told a narrative well. Herb would be a pleasure. He was good.
Roy: I stood a very good time using the services of him on The Hulk as soon as you. Hes teaching now.
Stan: If you speak to him, provide him with my best.
Roy: Coming up from coloring, there seemed to be Marie Severin, with which team you worked on Dr. Strange.
Stan: Marie may be worth an entire interview only to talk about her. You mentioned being multi-talented. She was great at humorous cartoons; she did The Hulk and these serious strips; on the list of best colorists within the business; shes an awesome person having a great humorousness; always cheerful and great to cooperate with. She seemed to be stylized; you could invariably recognize her work to be able slight touch of cartooniness inside serious artwork that gave it a clear charm. Im fond of Marie.
Roy: She and her brother John combined her style and the realism in Kull which might be considered classics with the early 70s.
Stan: Of course, you could execute a whole interview about John, too; he is one of several real greats from the business.
Roy: It must have already been the money. laughs You also dealt with Bill Everett throughout the years.
Stan: Bill was great, and he had also been very, very stylized. You could spot an Everett drawing, and hubby had their own way of telling stories. He was imaginative and talented, though the amazing thing was which he was very easy to do business with. When I dealt with him, there is no show of temperament in any respect. For a guy that talented, you would think he'd have argued constantly No, Stan, I dont that way! Lets practice it this way! but no, he became a joy to utilize.
Roy: Do you remember stumbling out of bed one morning and realizing that Marvel had finally surpassed DC in whole sales?
Stan: I cant remember fondly the exact moment I pointed out that, but I know it absolutely was very pleasant to listen to it. I must admit that I expected it, Roy, therefore it didnt come to be a surprise. I could tell from the fan mail we had arrived getting, the write-ups we received in several newspapers and magazines everything was Marvel and nobody was speaking about DC. Just by speaking with people myself when I went along to conventions or lectures, I thought we were outselling them before that became officially the truth.
Roy: Ive heard that there would be a great dropoff in female readers from the early 70s. We invented three strips for which you comprised the names and concepts: Shanna the She-Devil, Night Nurse, and The Claws on the Cat. Were we attempting to woo the female readers back?
Stan: Yes, as well as appeal to your readers who liked considering pretty girls. Unfortunately, we werent capable of draw the ladies the way theyre drawn now, because I think if we ended up, our sales might have soared much over they did!
Roy: People are aware that Im the individual who assigned three women to publish those books Linda Fite now Herb Trimpes wife; my first wife Jeanie; and Phil Seulings wife Carol but I cant remember if thats something you suggested.
Stan: Youre so strong-willed, you wouldnt have got my suggestion. I are unsure! laughs If I were forced to guess, Id say which it was your idea, because I dont think I was letting you know who to utilize.
Roy: Probably not. Of course, in some ways, I may have gotten knowledgeable writers, but I have no idea if that could have helped the books, for the reason that market didnt appear to be there during that time. We did everything we might. We got Marie Severin to attract The Cat and Wally Wood to ink; we have got Steranko to complete the covers to Shanna.
Stan: The failure of The Cat was my biggest disappointment. I really believed that could have worked.
Roy: Strangely enough, the one which is collected now, to get a reason I cannot determine, is Night Nurse, by my ex-wife Jeanie and Winslow Mortimer.
Stan: Martin Goodman always thought there were something inherently sexy about nurses. I could never get inside his thinking there.
Roy: Considering the mens-sweat magazines he published with those ill-clad nurses, thats where in all probability it came from. Hadnt Timely done Linda Carter, Student Nurse?
Stan: We even had Nellie the Nurse, a humor book.
Roy: And Tessie the Typist and Millie the Model, my first assignment at Marvel.
Stan: Not to mention Hedy of Hollywood.
Roy: And probably your peak moment in comics, Ziggy the Pig and Silly Seal.
Stan: Oh, that had been our high point. laughs We peaked! That was with Al Jaffee.
Roy: In the early 60s you needed done that Willie Lumpkin newspaper strip. You used that name again with the mailman in Fantastic Four.
Stan: That was to keep things interesting. Mel Lazarus had done a strip called Miss Peach, which used not panels but one long panel instead. I liked that idea a lot, while Harold Anderson, the actual top of Publishers Syndicate, asked me to try and do a strip, I invented Barneys Beat, that was about a New York City cop and each of the characters on his patrol who hed meet every day and then there would become a gag. I did some samples with Dan DeCarlo, and I thought it had been wonderful.
Harold said that it was too big city-ish and theyre not planning to care for it inside the small towns because they lack cops with a beat out there. He wanted an issue that would attract the hinterland, something bucolic. He said, You understand what I want, Stan? I need a mailman! A friendly little mailman in a tiny town. I dont remember if I came up with all the name Lumpkin or he did, but I hated it. I think I came up using the name like a joke anf the husband said, Yeah, thats it! Good idea!
It was the main one strip inside world I didnt think I was qualified to create, because I liked items that were hip and cutting-edge, cool and big city. I always wrote Seinfeld which kind of thing. Here Im writing in regards to mailman in a tiny town! Even though it had been not my sort of thing, it lasted for just a couple of years. Unlike today, when I perform the Spider-Man daily strip rather than heard through the syndicate I gotta refer to them as a few times per year and say, Are you guys conscious were still repeating this?, in those times Harold Anderson offered every gag, checked out every panel, and I caused him. He would be a lovely man, but just as one editor, he was obviously a nightmare! laughs
Roy: You said which you didnt stay President very only a few months, maybe each year.
Stan: I found that I was supposed to and did go to lots of financial meetings where they can discuss costs and financial statements. We would ought to come up which has a five-year financial plan things like this. I only stayed as President for each year maybe less because I would say to myself at those meetings, What am I doing here? There must be millions of people who could do this too as or much better than I. The thing that I enjoy by far the most and carry out the best is working for the stories, and I wasnt doing that! At some point I walked in Feinberg and said, I dont want for being President any longer. I think Im on the list of few those who resigned the post of President. But I kept the title of Publisher, though Im still unsure what a publishers duties are!
Roy: Thats when Al Landau, it's unlikely that any of one of the best people, succeeded you as president of Marvel. His company, Trans World, was selling Marvels are employed in other countries.
Stan: He arrived because Martin knew him and managed him for several years; they was friendly. But then Martin and he experienced a falling out I don't realize. I always got along fine with Al. He leaned on me a good deal, so I helped him when he was President he reached me for everything. I know which he wasnt everything popular. He died recently.
Roy: Al Landau was President a few years; then Jim Galton took over. The only time Al and I were within the same side and yes it took me a moment to realize why was when both of us needed to get back one of several pages of story there was lost inside our books. I wanted the page back because I wanted it back, for better stories anf the husband wanted it because then his company Trans World could sell another page abroad. We stood a community appealing only that once through the year roughly he was there and I was Editor-in-Chief.
I don't forget when I was meant to fly onto the Philippines and speak with the artists there. I would have was required to spend 24 hours inside the air, a day or possibly even longer there if this revolution happening, and another a day coming home. I remember you telling me that Al Landau didnt want me to travel because it would are already too much such as a vacation! laughs Some vacation! I was happy not to need to go!
Stan: Al would have been a very strange guy.
Roy: Between my leaving in 74 and Jim Shooters ascension in 77, a time of three years, there are four editors-in-chief, counting several weeks of Gerry Conway: Len Wein, Marv Wolfman, Gerry, almost me again, and Archie. Did that musical chairs of editors bother you?
Stan: Yeah. I wish that any one those guys might have stayed for a short time. But it didnt affect me very much; I just thought it didnt look good for your company that individuals didnt know whatever we were doing. But these folks were all good. I was disappointed that Gerry didnt stay, because I always liked him and thought he would perform good job.
Roy: Thats really the only time the position didnt automatically see a next part of line. I suggested bringing Gerry back from DC and thought who's would figure out, but after three weeks he just couldnt handle it.
Heres something phrased because of the CBA editor: Arguably, the DC Comics under Carmine Infantino were art-driven beautiful to think about, but maybe the art overwhelmed the storytelling. But Marvel seemed depending your legacy that, however great the artwork, the storyline was paramount. Sales did actually prove that out. What is it, think, that made Marvel the leader for that last quarter century?
Stan: I would prefer to think that any of us had a great marriage of art and script. I think which the art has long been at least as important as being the story. Because you may tell the top story inside world, if the artwork is dull its as being a movie: If the photography, acting, or directing is detrimental, you can have a very great story nevertheless its still not planning to be a fantastic movie. By precisely the same token, you'll be able to have the very best artwork and if the storyplot isnt there, youre only likely to appeal to individuals who like to consider nice drawings. To me, a comic strip must be a beautifully illustrated story, not simply beautiful illustrations.
I could not say which the story itself is paramount; so that as far to be a style, I would believe one thing that made our work somewhat different from anyone elses may be the fact that individuals tried to produce our characters as real and believable as you can. Even though these were in fantasy stories, our formula always was, What if somebody such as this existed inside the real world, and an amount his or her life end up like?
We always aimed to have dialogue that sounded as though real people might say it, and now we always attempted to give our characters different personalities so that they werent cut through the same mold. We attempted to have every one talking differently from your others. But, okay the original statement, we never concentrated more about script than art, nor did we concentrate on art than script. The two are indivisible; they was required to work perfectly together.
Roy: And now I have what Evans and Novak would turn to their show, The Big Question, that the editor requested me to inquire about you: Which is stronger, Thor or perhaps the Hulk?
Stan: I would ought to guess that Thor is stronger, only while he is a god and in all likelihood cant be killed. Again, I don't realize how the guys are actually writing him lately, but I regarded him as invulnerable. I would believe that with his hammer and everything, hed probably beat the Hulk. But whats interesting while using Hulk is, the harder he fights plus the more hes beaten, the stronger he gets, so maybe it would have been a draw.
Roy: It was a legitimate facetious question but, about the other hand, its some of those things you could argue about forever. Its amazing that, after 25-30 years, people still imagine that because archetypal Marvel question.
Stan: The thing I loved writing was having our heroes fight, as well as for me to assume a solution to end the storyplot without denigrating each one or making one seem stronger compared to the other. The best illustration of this was in a single issue of Daredevil, where DD was fighting Sub-Mariner. Oh, I loved the best way that story been found! That was so that perfectly done. Daredevil was beaten, but he was only as heroic as Sub-Mariner.
Editors Note: Special because of Joanie and Stan for your timely loan from the photographs that illustrate this conversation.
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Comic Book Artist, Eisner Award winner for Best Comics - Related Magazine, celebrates the lives and works of great cartoonists, writers and editors all eras through in-depth interviews, feature articles, and unpublished art.
The chariot awaits: Stan shared numerous personal pictures with CBA - these shot of Stan and his awesome wife Joanie using vintage Rolls Royce was essentially the most prominent on the bunch. Stan added this caption: This is a final time we get a car thats more photogenic than us! Circa 1985
What follows is less an interview and even more a conversation between your two most prominent creative forces working at Marvel Comics inside the early 1970s: the legendary Smilin Stan Lee and Rascally Roy Thomas. The discussion was conducted via telephone in 2 sessions during May 1998.
STAN LEE : What in the world could you possibly ask me that hasnt been asked before?
ROY THOMAS: The magazines theme for the second concern is Marvel from 1970-77, however well need a bit background from your 40s with the 60s.
Roy: You started working at Timely like a teenager under Joe Simon and Jack Kirby. Were both of them counted as editors, or maybe it was just Joe?
Stan : My memory is not the most beneficial, but I believed Joe was the editor and form of Jacks boss. I got that feeling. Generally, Jack can be sitting for the drawing board drawing and chewing his cigar, muttering to himself. Joe could well be walking around, chewing his cigar and mumbling, as well as handling whatever business there seemed to be to handle under Martin Goodman.
Roy: When Simon Kirby left Timely in 1941 to travel to be employed by DC with all the deal that have them doing Boy Commandos, Sandman, etc., was there some bad blood totally and publisher Martin Goodman? Or did he just accept the fact there were more money being made at DC?
Stan : I would imagine there was required to have been some bad blood, or why would they've already left? I use a feeling that there is some problem. Either Martin determined that these people were doing work about the side, or they began to argue about who owned Captain America the two of these things might be wrong, nonetheless it was something like this. There was some unpleasantness.
Roy: John Buscema once told the editor of Comic Book Artist that, sometime inside late 40s, Martin Goodman once opened a closet door and discovered a huge pile of discarded but paid-for art which was never published. John says that Goodman promptly put every one of the staff artists on freelance status. Do you recall that?
Stan : It will not have happened just when he opened a closet door. But I believe that I could have been in somewhat trouble when that happened. We had bought lots of strips that I didnt think were really all of that good, but I paid the artists and writers on their behalf anyway, and I kinda hid them inside closet! laughter And Martin found them and I think he wasnt too happy. If I wasnt satisfied together with the work, I wasnt designed to have paid, but I never was sure it had been really the artists or writers fault. But when the position was finished I didnt think who's was any situation that I wished to use. I felt we could apply it in inventory use it out in other books. Martin, probably rightly so, was slightly annoyed because it absolutely was his money I was spending.
Roy: The revival of Captain America, the Human Torch, and Sub-Mariner within the 50s was over, everyone assumes, because in the success in the Superman TV show. Bill Everett laughed and said in a job interview how some TV producers approached Martin Goodman and Timely in 1954 in regards to a Sub-Mariner TV show to star Richard Egan. Bill said comedian Herb Shriner was part from the deal, understanding that Arthur Godfrey put up the funds. Bill mentioned a producer named Frank Saverstein or Saperstein. Did you know anything this?
Stan : No. Its an amusing thing: Martin never discussed business deals by himself, knowning that would have fallen in the heading of your business deal. This is the 1st that Ive learned about it.
Roy: You were exactly the peon that kept things running? laughs
Roy: A few years next, the American News debacle happened thats when Timely/Atlas collapsed. Bill said that someone forewarned him. Did you possess warning that it total collapse was coming?
Stan : Absolutely not. The only thing I did know was that Martin had given up his or her own distribution company together gone together with the American News Company. I remember saying to him, Gee, why did you accomplish that? I thought that individuals had a superb distribution company. His answer was like, Oh, Stan, you wouldnt understand. It has to perform with finance. I didnt really give you a damn, and I went back to doing the comics.
And then, very shortly thereafter maybe 2 weeks later the American News Company went out of business! We were left without having a distributor and that we couldnt return to distributing our very own books as the fact that Martin quit performing it and picked American News had got the wholesalers very angry I do not know why it got them angry, but itrrrs this that I heard and it also would are already impossible for Martin to simply say, Okay, well resume where we had arrived and distribute our books.
It wound up where we had arrived turning out 40, 50, 60 books on a monthly basis, maybe more, plus the only company we might get to distribute our books was our closest rival, National DC Comics. Suddenly we went from 60, 70, 80 books monthly whatever it absolutely was to either eight or 12 books per month, which has been all Independent News Distributors would accept from us. We needed to try and build ourselves up from that until we eventually traveled to Curtis Circulation.
Roy: Didnt Independent possess a contract that basically declared that in order to start out one new title, you were forced to drop something else entirely?
Stan : I dont remember that for the fact, but that may very well are already the case. I know so it was very tough for people; we had been down to nothing.
Roy: Thats the time scale when Jack Kirby delivered to Marvel. Jack mentioned in interviews in The Comics Journal 136 which he came to operate offering his services when we were literally moving out the piece of furniture. Do you recall that?
Stan : I never remember being there anybody were moving out the piece of furniture. chuckles If they ever moved the piece of furniture, they achieved it during the weekend when citizens were home. Jack tended toward hyperbole, the same as the time he was quoted as proclaiming that he entered and I was crying and I said, Please save the organization! Im not a crier and I would not have declared. I was delighted that Jack was there and I loved utilizing him, but I never cried to him. laughs
Roy: During that period after you put out hardly any books, have you feel that your days in comics were limited which maybe the entire thing was gonna die?
Stan : Believe it or you cannot, I think I felt like that until we started Marvel Comics. I never believed that this thing would last! laughs When did I start? 40? I think that it was the third issue of Captain America.
Roy: That would have already been in very late 40 or early 41, with regards to when the issues left a cubicle. Less than each year later you took over as temporary editor; that lasted for years. Now, skipping ahead to 1961: The story has often been told in this infamous, legendary round of golf with Martin Goodman and DC President Jack Liebowitz by which Liebowitz bragged around the sales of Justice League of America, and Goodman made a comeback and said to start a super-hero book. Was that story really true?
Stan : Thats absolutely true. He arrived to see me some day and said, Ive just been traveling with Jack Liebowitz we were holding pretty friendly and that he said, Jack was telling me the Justice League is selling well, and why dont we perform book in regards to a group of super-heroes? Thats the way you happened to accomplish Fantastic Four.
Roy: Was there any thought in those days to just bringing back Cap, Torch, and Sub-Mariner?
Stan : No, I really wanted to try and do something new. You probably heard this story: I needed to quit in those days. I was really so bored and incredibly too old being doing these stupid comic books; I needed to quit. I have also been frustrated because I wanted to perform comic books which were even though this seems such as a contradiction in terms I wanted to try and do a more realistic fantasy. Martin wouldnt let me together with wanted the stories done just how they had for ages been done, with very young children planned. That maybe it was.
My wife Joan believed to me, You know, Stan, when they asked you to complete a new book of a new gang of super-heroes, why dont one does em the way you feel youd like to complete a book? If you want to give up anyway, the worst that can happen is the fact hell fire you, therefore what? You want to give up. I figured, hey, maybe shes right. Thats why I didnt want to perform the Torch and also the Sub-Mariner; I wished to create a new group and do them just how I had always wanted to accomplish a comic strip. Thats how it happened.
Roy: I assume that Joan said this when you were given the assignment to complete the super-hero group instead of while you had been doing the monster books.
Stan : It was after I said that Martin wanted to complete a super-hero group but I believed I would say to him, Forget it. I want to stop.
Roy: So you're actually contemplating quitting as opposed to doing the Fantastic Four? I hadnt heard that before! That would've changed comic history.
Stan : Maybe. If Martin hadnt can be found in to me and said, Liebowitz said the Justice League is selling well, exactly why dont we complete a comic book about super-heroes? if he hadnt declared to me, I mightve within the next couple of days, I mightve just quit.
Roy: Timing is everything.
Roy: By Fantastic Four 1, you'd developed what later found be known as the Marvel style. But that you were doing this along for most monster stories, a long time before this. How far back does who go?
Stan : You mean just doing synopses for your artists? Was I doing them before Marvel?
Roy: I know you did it for Fantastic Four. Stan s synopsis for 1 is printed in Alter Ego, Vol. 2, 2, backing this matter of CBA. So I figured with Jack since the artist and perhaps Ditko, too during these minor stories that you just mostly wrote, as well as Larry Lieber, you must have already been doing it since monster days.
Stan : You know something, Roy? Now you say it, thats probably true; but I had never looked at that. I considered that I started it together with the Fantastic Four, but youre probably right.
Roy: You probably didnt write full scripts for Jack for Fin Fang Foom.
Stan : I did full scripts inside beginning, then again I found how good he only agreed to be creating his or her own little sequence of pictures and I did it within the beginning with Ditko, too however, if I discovered how good these were, I remarked that, Gee, I dont have to accomplish it I get an even better story by only letting them run free.
Roy: The amazing thing is, not only is it possible you get Jack and Steve to complete it, but that other artists who had always worked from scripts Dick Ayers, Don Heck, among others could also learn to perform it and become quite successful with slightly training within you.
Stan : I will admit that a whole lot of them were very nervous regarding it, and incredibly unhappy about being asked to accomplish it. But then they loved it before long.
Roy: I believe John Buscema, too, thought it was somewhat strange to start with, but got a chance to really like it. Then, when someone would provide him a full script, he didnt prefer that.
Stan : Absolutely right. John Buscema is amazing. He was not ever thought of it is not the popular idea which he was essentially the most creative guy, storywise. And yet, he was as creative as anybody else probably as creative as Jack. Well, you dealt with John.
Roy: Sure, a great deal: Conan, Avengers.
Stan : He only needed some words. He didnt even want a major synopsis; he wanted the skimpiest outline, when he wanted to perform it his way. And his way was always great!
Roy: I remember plotting the initial story on this villain referred to as Man-Ape in The Avengers with him for a couple minutes on the phone. I wished to give him more, and hubby said, Nah, thats enough. laughs
Stan : Thats just what he did when camping. And I has never been disappointed.
Roy: How do you feel about being furnished by Independent? Especially after Marvel became successful, had you been antsy to leave out from under?
Stan : It would end up like if you are working for Ford, and General Motors was selling your cars! I could never prove it, but we had been sure its just and psychology that National Comics wasnt employed as hard to sell our books as these folks were to sell theirs. Even more, that it was the fact we were only able to complete so few books inside beginning, which meant we was required to let lots of artists and writers go. That was always the worst thing that can happen.
Roy: I do remember whenever we began particularly to obtain suspicions through the Not Brand Echh days, when every issue of their book gave the impression to sell, until one where we a takeoff on Superman around the cover. Suddenly the sales was lost! laughs In the conception, its now recognized that Larry Lieber, your brother, wrote the dialogue for the number of stories, after these were plotted by you together with drawn by Jack or whoever, on some series like Thor and Iron Man.
Stan : Well, its within the credits and I always put his name in. If not, Id say, Plot by Stan Lee. Larry definitely did the very first Thor, and that he may have written the copy for Iron Man. What I did was together with the plot and hubby wrote it.
Roy: Was it that you simply were to busy, or have you just think so it wasnt that important you do the dialogue?
Stan : Both. And you be aware that both Thor and Iron Man were only 10-, 11-page stories but not a feature book. I was very busy and I liked the best way that Larry wrote, and for that reason I thought Id provide him with a shot advertising online.
Roy: The mere indisputable fact that people assumed for many years afterward that you just did the dialogue shows he imitated your lifestyle pretty well. The thing with Larry is that they was just just a little slow.
Stan : He was like Romita; he never was the fastest one.
Roy: We familiar with say that in case wed change Rawhide Kid from monthly to bimonthly, Larry would certainly take two times as long to draw in it. laughter Ill never forget about the day I walked into one Marvel office brand new show after Ditko quit, and heres John Romita drawing Amazing Spider-Man and Larry drawing the Spider-Man Annual and Marie Severin drawing Dr. Strange, and I joked, This will be the Steve Ditko Room; you will need three of you to perform what Steve Ditko used to perform.
Production Manager Sol Brodsky informed me that, right on the start, you thought Spider-Man was a crucial character, regardless of whether he was just from the last issue of Amazing Fantasy. But Larry Ivie, another individual who worked there for the time, feels you considered him a throwaway character. Did you believe that Spider-Man was big on the start?
Stan : Im seeking to remember, but I think I should have felt that she was an excellent character or I wouldnt have fought so much to complete him. I wanted to try and do Spider-Man being a book, but Martin wouldnt allow me to. Therefore I sneaked him into your last issue of Amazing Fantasy.
Roy: Because Goodman asserted spiders wouldnt sell?
Stan : He said three items that I will forever keep in mind: He said people hate spiders, which means you cant call the hero Spider-Man; when I told him I wanted the hero to get a teenager, while he was within the beginning, Martin stated that a teenager cant be quite the hero, but only certainly be a sidekick; after which when I said I wanted him not to become too well-liked by girls, rather than great-looking or maybe a strong, macho-looking guy, but simply a thin, pimply high school graduation student, and Martin said, Dont you understand just what a hero is? At a similar time, I also stated that I wanted him to have lots of problems, like that they doesnt have enough money and hed receive an allergy attack as they was fighting. Martin just wouldnt permit me to do the ebook. Normally, Id have forgotten about this, but when i was doing the final issue of Amazing Fantasy, I input it in there. So I should have felt that she was important somehow, or I wouldnt have bothered.
Roy: You started next to joking about super-heroes being long underwear characters, so it stood a different tone with the very beginning. It was obvious that there was lots of thought commencing it. I noticed that this day I bought it, in 1962.
Stan : I have no idea if there is that much thought, or if I was only uninhibited when I wrote it.
Roy: There could be that, too: the exact opposite!
Stan : There wasnt much thought in anything, since there wasnt time to offer anything a whole lot thought; i was working too fast!
Roy: Sometime, a day or two before that, you'd some alien spider-men in an account you did with Jack.
Stan : Maybe. I know Jack once declared that he had done a Spider-Man comic in the past and asserted I had copied it. I never discovered it and, even today, I are unsure what happening.
Roy: Beck and Joe Simon worked for the Silver Spider, but within the inland northwest similarities, it generally seems to me, involving the two. Besides, there ended up The Spider before, anyway, within the pulps.
Stan : Thats probably what influenced me together with the name. I employed to read The Spider pulp magazine which needless to say was nothing beats Spider-Man and I always thought who's was a dramatic name.
Roy: The funny thing is which the pulp Spider was a lot more The Shadow; he didnt have any style of web. But whenever they did the movie serials, he experienced a costume which have webbing into it.
Stan : I didnt start to see the serials. When they started to try and do the Spider paperbacks a short while ago, whoever the publisher was sent me instructions asking if Id give some type of testimonial for the novel. You know Id always write a number of lines for just a book, and I wrote the reason is great to view The Spider returning. I thought that it was nice and tried to perform what I could to assist those books sell. One day less than long ago, I got correspondence from Jay Kennedy, the Editor-in-Chief at King Features, also it said that from the Spider-Man newspaper strip I must not make use of the term The Spider from the title, in one of several coming-next-week blurbs. I wrote similar to, The Spider at Bay. They protested and thought I was attempting to pull a timely one. Since then I dont makes use of the term The Spider anymore.
Roy: Various people like Gene Colan, Frank Giacoia, and Mike Esposito started wandering onto Marvel inside the mid-60s, and in addition they used pseudonyms. Was this so DC wouldnt realize that they were doing work for Marvel?
Stan : Maybe not in each and every case, but where Gene and Frank, I dont think there was some other reason for them make use of different names.
Roy: Everyones heard tales of yourself physically playing out stories, jumping on tables, and acting out Thor stories.
Stan : I familiar with enjoy doing that. I always experienced a lot of energy in those days and yes it was hard will be able to sit still. I think I never really were raised and I loved acting silly. I got a boot out of it. Writing comics you probably know how it feels, but perhaps you dont believe that way writing for the typewriter, hour after hour, got sort of boring. I would do whatever I could do today to jazz things up. I liked to feel that there were excitement within the air on the office. If I could sing loudly or play my ocarina I was the worst player inside world, but at the least it made a great deal of noise.
Roy: Maybe Im more inhibited because Im short, and to be a high school teacher for many years, I was required to get the students, several of whom were taller than I was, to consider me seriously.
Stan : laughs Being a teacher probably toned you down!
Roy: When you commenced those letter columns your friendly tone, have you been inspired because of the EC letters pages?
Stan : No. You understand what inspired me? When I would have been a kid, there familiar with be these hardcover book series like The Hardy Boys, Tom Swift, Tom Sturdy, but nobody ever heard with the one I read: Jerry Todd and Poppy Ott. I think Poppy became a friend of Jerry Todds who was simply spun off into his very own series. They were not periodicals or magazine but real books.
At the final of each book, there was letters pages the location where the writer, Leo Edwards, would write a bit message towards the readers and print a few of their letters with answers. He stood a very informal style, plus the books themselves were wonderful simply because were adventure stories. But unlike The Hardy Boys as well as the others, there became a tremendous number of humor how I tried to perform with Spider-Man and several others. I was obviously a big fan these books, and I loved the actual fact that they'd letters and commentary through the author. Leo Edwards was the only real guy that did that. Maybe I remembered the warm, friendly sense of those letters.
Roy: When I came aboard in mid-65, you are coming into a cubicle only several days per week. Was it because it turned out getting too busy?
Stan : Thats just a little bit of an article: A few years before that, I was doing a whole lot writing and I couldnt finish it within the office, so I asked Martin, I need to have 1 day a week to get my writing done. So he was quoted saying okay, and I took Wednesday off because it absolutely was right inside middle on the week plus it broke it well into two two-day weeks.
Then, as I got more and even more into writing, I asked Joan, Im gonna question him for another day off. She said, You cant achieve that! How can you contain the nerve ought to for two days per week off and hes paying which you weekly salary? Hey, the sole thing he is able to do is refuse. So I asked him, anf the husband must have stood a good golfing technique that day, and the man said okay. I removed Tuesdays and Thursdays.
Then I still gave the impression to feel that I were forced to much writing to try and do, so I asked Joan, Im likely to ask him if I might take Monday, Wednesday, and Friday off! She said, Stan, Im about to head for your hills! Nobody can request something prefer that! I said, Hey, exactly what can I lose? And he actually said okay! So there became a time when I entered Tuesdays and Thursdays.
The funny thing is the fact people still say if you ask me, Boy, youre lucky to keep home days past, and theres not any way to explain that Id rather be inside the office! When Im home, Im working every one of the time; when Im inside office, Im speaking to people, making cell phone calls, acting being a boss being inside office is fun! Being at home, Im sitting with the goddamned typewriter or, now, laptop computer and Im working. But it still sounds to those like this sort of cushy deal.
Roy: There were a couple of individuals who worked from the office within a vague editorial capacity in 65 before I arrived. One of them was Larry Ivie. Was he working there for an assistant editor for the time?
Stan : I remember his name he wrote books, didnt he? But I really dont remember. I just remember the name.
Roy: Now concerning the famous Marvel Writers Test: Sol Brodksy and Flo Steinberg told me that you just put an advert for writers from the New York Times, together with hundreds of people applying.
Stan : Its news in my opinion, nonetheless it sounds like something natural meats have done.
Roy: Did you ought to read a great deal of the tests?
Stan : I probably gave the crooks to somebody else to learn. I really dont remember.
Roy: The reason Im curious is supposedly I was hired for the basis of using this writers test while I was working at DC.
Stan : Then I must are actually reading them.
Roy: We met the following day after I turned it in. You offered me a job several minutes later, however, you never referred on the test then or at every other time, so I couldn't know if you actually see clearly or if I was hired because I was already being employed by Mort Weisinger at DC. laughs
Stan : I think I liked your personality.
Roy: It was always strange in my experience: I went within expecting to discuss this writing ensure that you figured that I need to have passed however you never mentioned it! And Im still waiting!
Roy: Were actually planning to print one page of this test in Comic Book Artist. The test was four Jack Kirby pages from Fantastic Four Annual
Stan : Oh! When I wanted individuals to put dialogue above the pictures? That was obviously a good idea!
Roy: You had Sol or someone take away the dialogue. It only agreed to be black-and-white. Other people like Denny ONeil and Gary Friedrich took it. But soon afterwards we stopped deploying it.
Stan : That was obviously a clever idea! Im happy with me! laughs You know, I probably did read yours and most from the others, because I know I hate to study scripts, but if that it was just pictures with dialogue balloons, I may have read that right away, and most likely I did read all of them. And it's likely that Im a lousy judge, so I probably liked yours! laughs
Roy: I was startled to understand in 65 that Marvel only agreed to be part of an parent company called Magazine Management. A great deal of people using departments continued to fame and fortune during Marvel s conception: humorist/playwright Bruce Jay Friedman, Mario Puzo, Ernest Tidyman who created Shaft, and gossip columnist Rona Barrett. Do you remember when Puzo before he arrived with The Godfather wished to write for Marvel?
Stan : Yeah. Either he located me or I heard which he was style of strapped for money and that he would wish to see if he could write a comic. At any rate, I spoke to him and I gave him an assignment because I knew he would be a good writer. He made a comeback to me a number of weeks later and that he hadnt done the assignment. He said, Stan, I didnt be aware that writing comics am hard! I could write a goddamned novel with every one of the work it would take me to try and do this! The next thing I knew, there were The Godfather!
Roy: That was his third novel, but I imagine he could have already been working on it on the time, so he eventually might have left us anyway. laughs I remember that if we started the Academy of Comic Book Arts in 1970-71, he sent some text to the primary public meeting thanking Marvel Comics for teaching the kids to read if your public schools failed.
Roy: I was sitting from the audience with Tom Wolfe for the time. Id invited Wolfe as he was an idol of mine. So there was some nice heavy names for your first big public ACBA meeting.
Stan : I would love the chance to begin ACBA again. The industry could certainly use that. With all of the contacts I are in possession of in TV, if there was clearly an ACBA, Ill bet I could have the awards ceremony to get televised once each year.
Roy: Now we wouldnt win anymore! laughs In the 2 weeks I worked for DC in 65, I learned that they had an editorial meeting during which they were discussing the Marvel competition, because Marvel had did start to outsell DC in percentages. This was the other time since EC had done it within the 50s that Independent was distributing a comics company that had been outselling DC, percentage-wise. When have you begin to appreciate that Marvel was transforming into a sensation?
Unpublished cover towards the seventh issue of Stan s favorite comic strip character, The Silver Surfer. Art by John Sal Buscema. 1998 Marvel Entertainment.
Stan : I would estimate that A when I look at the fan mail do you believe that I read every damn letter! Which is why I wear glasses now! and B Martin probably informed me. I could tell how well there we were doing from the letters the spot that the kids would write, Youre the most popular magazines and that we love these characters. Martin was delighted and proud about this and would inform me.
Roy: In 1968 Marvel expanded. Every super-hero had his or her own title Iron Man, Sub-Mariner, Captain America.
Roy: And soon and then, there was obviously a downturn in sales generally. Do you think there were an over-expansion?
Stan : I dont even remember. Well, you're there for enough time to understand that sales their very own ups and downs. Even the most beneficial books Fantastic Four, Spider-Man, Hulk, Thor some months they didnt sell likewise as other months. The same went for Superman, Batman. Today the same thing goes for Spawn, which isnt selling so what now it sold each year ago. They go up, each goes down. Its hard to remember specifically any particular event or why it happened.
Roy: You may recall that in 1971 Martin Goodman suddenly determined to jump the page count to 48 pages for 25. Then, after one glorious month of the big books, we were holding suddenly dropped back right down to 32 pages for 20. I understand the motivation to offer 50% away from the cover price on the wholesalers, but I wondered how you felt concerning this jumping around of page size.
Stan : I had so little to try and do with that. The orders definitely come from Martins office: This month the price could well be this, or this month some of the ways many pages we. My only job was to generate sure somebody got good stories to fill those pages. I was not ever really consulted when they might raise the cost. The only time I was consulted was when he desired to put out the treasury editions that had been my idea. I believe I attended him once and said, Why dont we put out a major book men and women would notice? But when he made these decisions, he made all himself.
Roy: I remember that on the list of few times I met with Martin Goodman was when I was there with John Verpoorten Marvel s production manager and Goodman was referring to how suddenly we had arrived going to cut the many books down in size knowning that DC was likely to take a bath as long as they didnt follow suit right away plus they did have a bath, simply because kept the giant-size books for 12 months and Marvel just murdered them. So it would have been a very smart move, but I remember him then saying, Well, Im sure which the artists and writers will require to it better while using smaller books. And this was the only real time that I talked as much as Mr. Goodman I said, Actually, we love the bigger books. And he just almost stared at me blankly. That was the conclusion of our conversation. laughs
Roy: laughs It probably was! I was polite, but once within a while you ought to speak your You were writing less within the 70s, and thats enough time you began working together with French New Wave film director Alain Resnais within the film The Monster Maker.
Stan : That was not ever made. Yknow, we sold that screenplay, but it really was never produced.
Roy: You had another movie you worked on inside the late 70s called The Inmates. Have you ever considered taking one of those properties and turning them into graphic novels?
Stan : No, but Im working away at selling The Inmates as being a movie now. It needs some revision, but Im likely to start showing it around. The Monster Maker would require countless changes that I just lack the time. Maybe someday when I retire, that could probably be never.
Roy: As we entered the 70s, the fans were writing looking for us to try and do Tarzan and John Carter of Mars, Tolkien, Conan, and Doc Savage. All those properties were starting to get big in paperbacks within the late 60s. I remember us dealing with Conan, therefore you had me write what been found to be considered a two- or three-page memo to Martin Goodman to influence him as to the reasons we should seek the rights into a sword-and-sorcery hero. Ive never been capable to figure out why we didnt just up a character!
Stan : It was because people. You were too persuasive therefore you wanted to try and do Conan! I was not a major Conan fan. I had heard from it, but I dont feel that I ever see clearly. To show how little I know, I had very much confidence inside you, and I figured if Roy wants to try and do it that badly, well, lets try and get it done!
Roy: We originally experimented with get the rights to Thongor by Lin Carter, because we didnt think we can easily afford Conan, however it worked out alright certainly in my opinion. laughs
Stan : You were the guy who had previously been totally liable for doing Conan along with its success. That was one book that I had nothing to accomplish with!
Roy: I remember that you just said that after I completed an issue that I thought was good, I should show it for you. So I gave you the make-ready with the fourth issue, that was The Tower in the Elephant according to one of Howards best stories and also you took it within your office to get a few minutes, brought it back, tossed it limply in my desk, and said, Well, okay, thats it not my sort of thing. I felt bad because that's a particular story during which Conan didnt go rescuing or fighting in the end from the story.
Roy: If I have been making up the storyline, I wouldnt do it doing this, Ill admit. I was slightly worried about this myself, but it really turned out for being quite popular. About 1970, ACBA was formed, and DC publisher Carmine Infantino and also you were a state starters.
Stan : It was all of my idea, but I knew that I needed some support. I wanted it to be similar to the Motion Picture Academy of Arts and Sciences, and I felt and I feel by doing this to this day that comic books are a terrific literary and talent that isnt appreciated enough with this country. I felt that why the hell shouldnt we have an Academy of Comic Book Arts? Even previously I felt that after we had an awards ceremony each and every year, we will probably get it around the radio and finally, if we got slightly more prestige, have it televised. I knew there was a great deal of celebrities have been into comics, and thats all you should get something on tv to get this actor or actress for everyone as master of ceremonies. So I formed it so we were successful beyond my wildest dreams inside beginning, because every company joined and practically every writer and artists joined.
Unfortunately, Neal Adams, whose work I respect greatly hes one of many geniuses in the business desired to turn the damn thing in a union. At these meetings, Neal would get out of bed and start dealing with pay raises, benefits, and ownership for your artists. I remember saying to him and for the gathering on the whole, that they might well be in everything he stated, but i thought this was the wrong forum for that form of discussion. They dont discuss those matters within the Television Academy; thats the level of stuff you discuss within a union meeting.
If Neal needed to form a union, he runs ahead and take action, however the purpose of ACBA was to provide our industry prestige, to never discuss simple fact that artists do not possess ownership or things prefer that. I was not ever able to convince him, and ACBA became split up into two camps, it seemed. I wasnt thinking about starting a union, so I walked from it. Neal was elected president, but it really didnt last. The whole thing collapsed. Im not saying this to set down Nal Adams, for most in the things that they was pitching were very worthwhile things, but, as I said, I just felt which he had picked an unacceptable forum. I think now it could be considerably more successful than ever, because its a greater field and then there are more celebrities involved.
I had done my better to build up Marvel, in addition to being much as I might have contributed to Marvel s success with any stories, editing, or creating characters, I think nearly as valuable was the advertising, promotion, publicity, and huckstering that I did, traveling throughout the country and discussing Marvel, looking to give it the appropriate image. The reason I mention that is, it is precisely what I wanted to complete with ACBA; but I wanted to complete it for that whole industry, not merely for Marvel. That was the reason. I wanted to generate people believe that comic books really are great. I was very frustrated and disappointed that for some reason I couldnt get everybody to get the same vision that I had for ACBA.
Roy: The early 70s were a period when you began to move from actively as a writer because of other pursuits you had to try and do.
Stan : Yeah, guys like Roy Thomas edged me out!
Roy: laughs Right! I am eager to complete Spider-Man during those times! Much as I loved the smoothness Spider-Man, what I wanted to perform was Fantastic Four though nowadays it might be great to create Spidey and have those royalties! The main reason I wrote Spider-Man 101-104 and Archie Goodwin wrote Fantastic Four was because you had been working with Alain Resnais on The Monster Maker for approximately four months valuation on books. Did it feel odd to go back to Spidey, , and Thor after leaving them for four months and for the 1st time not writing any comics to get a period of time?
Stan : No. I think you are able to compare it to cycling; however long you say away, you get around the bike as well as its just like you never left it. For example, if I were to visit back to writing a manuscript now, I dont think so it would feel odd in any respect; my problem could be that I havent carefully browse the preceding issues, so I wouldnt know the place that the hell I was inside the storyline. Or I might write a character in a real way that I think will be the way to write down him, but I wouldnt be conscious that three other writers before me had changed the smoothness totally, so Im now writing it inside wrong way.
Roy: So whenever you write the Spider-Man newspaper strip, you ignore what goes on inside comic books?
Stan : Of course. I couldnt cope with this, because we perform the newspaper strip up to now in advance, and there isnt any way that I could allow it to be compatible using the books impossible.
Roy: Another event in 1970 that have considerable impact at Marvel was Jack Kirby suddenly leaving. Do you remember his call?
Stan : No. I be aware of it must have happened, but I dont specifically recall it. I have no idea who he called; it may not are already me. Maybe he didnt even call, but I just keep in mind that at one time he just stopped employed by me.
Roy: I remember he called, since you called us in and told us. In light of that has happened since, do you think how the relationship could are actually salvaged sometime?
Stan : I think it certainly could happen to be salvaged if I knew the fact that was bothering him. He never really informed me, nor did Steve Ditko when he left. You cant salvage something if you have no idea the cause.
Roy: I recall the day that Steve quit, a number of months after I began to function at Marvel. He just arrived, dropped off some pages, and left. Sol Brodsky then informed me he had suddenly quit. Sol were built with a memo on his desk to include 5.00 to Steves page rate, a large raise then, in order that it certainly wasnt over money. He wandered off to try and do work for Charlton, which paid one half of what Marvel was offering.
Stan : As you know, I hold the worst memory inside the world, but maybe I knew why he left for the time. But at this time, I absolutely cannot remember. The something I remember and felt bad about when Jack left, was that I was thinking about as well as perhaps I even spoken with him concerning this that I wanted to produce Jack my partner in the sense; I wanted him being the art director and I thought he could serve because function and I would serve because the editor. Maybe i thought this was way earlier, but I was disappointed when he left because I always felt that Jack and I could well be working there forever and doing everything.
Roy: For some months whenever you became publisher, you needed someone being art director, so Frank Giacoia were only available in as assistant art director, and, in the near future, John Romita succeeded him, becoming art director.
Stan : But I wasnt thinking about Jack being art director because I will be leaving; I just thought which it would be great working together with him because capacity. I was getting art director and thought that she could take it my shoulders, so I could just worry around the stories. It probably wouldnt been employed out anyway, because I may have disagreed with him about things not about their own work, but as we started critiquing other artists work, Jack and I might have viewed it differently. So it could be that I never could have dealt with any art director who function how I did, because I guess no 2 different people see anything precisely the same.
Roy: Also, with Jack in California, there would are already a geographical problem. I employ a memory that, sometime before Jack left, Jack called you up about new ideas he'd for characters. I dont think it went any more than that. Do you recall that whatsoever? I was always curious if those were precisely the same ideas that appeared annually or so later as The New Gods, and wondered should they could easily have finished up as Marvel characters.
Stan : I do not know if he informed me the ideas and I had stated that I didnt like em! laughs I just cant remember.
Roy: The last few months Jack was employed by Marvel, he wound up doing the writing over a couple of series Ka-Zar and The Inhumans. Did you invite him to write then?
Stan : I am likely the worst guy inside world for someone to interview! A I didnt realize he'd written them; and B I cant remember if I invited him to or you cannot. I dont believe I ever might have specifically said, Jack, I would like you to create, because I never considered Jack as being a writer but he was certainly a terrific plotter. Certainly 90% with the Tales of Asgard stories were Jacks plots, and these folks were great! He knew a little more about Norse mythology than I ever did or at the very least he enjoyed so that it is up!. I was busy enough just putting inside copy after he drew it.
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